Naked portafilter issues?

[jsutton]

I've recently upgraded from a Pasquini Livia 90 Auto w/ naked dbl portafilter -- was consistently pulling beautiful shots, pronounced cones shaped pulls...is there something with the LM naked dbl portafilter that I'm not getting, as my best pulls have not even come close to those from my Pasquini.

Disclaimer: Still working out the grind/tamp -- but have been at it steadily and haven't even come close to the beauty of my previous Pasquini pulls, so I'm wondering if the basket may have something to do with it...??

[peppersass]

Could be the basket. I haven't had the best pours with the stock LM double basket, though it isn't terrible. I've mainly been using an LM-style ridgeless basket for normal double doses (13-14g) and an LM triple for updosing (19g-21g). Most of my pours look nice, but the lower doses do tend to have thinner cones than the updoses. I believe that's pretty normal. The prettiest pours I've had have been with Vivace Dolce at 19g or so in the triple basket -- beautiful thick cone with lots of tiger striping.

However, I should point out that there's a problem with my machine such that it's running at about half the normal flow rate. It takes at least 10 seconds for the first drops of espresso to appear, regardless of the grind and dose, and shots take longer to complete. So it could be that the reduced flow rate is making my updosed pours look really nice (well sometimes at the end the cone gets huge and gloppy, another sign that something is wrong.) I believe my flow rate problem may also have reduced the brew pressure somewhat, which could also be affecting results. The lower dose pours continue to look about the same, somewhat thin cones. Not really sure if it's the Dolce that's making the pretty pours or the machine problem.

You might experiment with lowering the brew pressure in your GS/3 a little to see if that improves your pours. It's easy to do -- just check the installation manual.

[yannis]

I've recently upgraded from a Pasquini Livia 90 Auto w/ naked dbl portafilter -- was consistently pulling beautiful shots, pronounced cones shaped pulls...is there something with the LM naked dbl portafilter that I'm not getting, as my best pulls have not even come close to those from my Pasquini.

Disclaimer: Still working out the grind/tamp -- but have been at it steadily and haven't even come close to the beauty of my previous Pasquini pulls, so I'm wondering if the basket may have something to do with it...??

Having followed a similar path, Livia 90 -> Vivaldi II -> GS3, there is no comparison between what I can do in the GS3 vs the Livia.
That said, I have found the GS3 less forgiving than the Vivaldi of shortcomings in grinding, distribution and tamping. Even small mistakes in any of the above result in uneven or blonded shots, although the end result tastes a lot better than I would expect by looking at the pull. What grinder are you using?

[jsutton]

Mazzer Mini Doser (just a couple months old...)

[yannis]

I have a MACAP M4 stepless with doser, which I think is comparable, and about half my extractions have visual issues, typically because the center takes longer to extract and this results in early blonding and uneven cone. In about a quarter the taste gets affected enough for them to end in the sink or in a milk drink. In the morning I find it hard to muster the attention required for even distribution before having some caffeine, with the obvious chicken/egg problem.

I found that a needle used to fluff up the grounds before tamping helps a lot, but it adds another step. None of these was a problem with the Vivaldi. Since anything much taller than the MACAP wouldn't work in my kitchen, I am planning to upgrade to a Versalab. Based on what I read here and on coffeegeek, upgrading the grinder after getting the GS/3 seems a common experience.

[peppersass]

Let us know how it goes with the Versalab.

[chasr]

Previously Dick had asked whether you were using the std LM or the LM Ridgeless baskets. I don't think you answered. This can make a big difference and also drive the optimal tamper. I use a std 58mm tamper on the ridgeless baskets with good results. However, I have seen recommendations to use a 57mm tamper on the standard baskets.

Even a 57mm tamper will bottom against the ridge before you get a good tamp depending on your dosing level. I used a digital micrometer to measure the standard basket and discovered that you can use no larger than a 54mm tamper if you need to clear the ridge.

[Wilson]

Chasr,

I use a Reg Barber 56.80 tamper with a Euro curve and is what I was trying to duplicate from the plastic tamper that came with my GS3. Using 14.5 to 14.8 grams of Compak K10 WBC ground coffee with a light 20 Lb tamp, the tamp will stop just at the top of the basket ridge. Using the LM naked PF with an after market 21 gram basket I use a Reg Barber 58.2 tamper with a C-flat curve. This tamper base is flat for about 85 percent of the middle and has a slight up curve on the edges and leaves no channeling.

When using the single basket PF I use a Reg Barber 40.85 tamper that perfectly fits the puck hole in the basket and with 7.2 to 7.4 grams of coffee grounds it will tamp perfectly to the top and into the puck hole. Using the pre-infusion of 1 second on and two seconds off the single shot will average 23 to 24 seconds without changing the grind from using what is used for double dose shots from the Compak grinder. This will make a none pre-infusion draw time of 20 to 21 seconds and with 5 oz of tea water makes a good cup of black coffee and a perfect puck with no channeling.

I have no problem with LM double basket and the 56.80 tamper causing channelling of any kind. Using the naked PF it requires a different, larger, coffee grind due to the extra amount of coffee grounds and I seldom use the naked basket because of the grind difference. I have 14 and 19 gram no-ridge aftermarket baskets, but see no reason to switch using the right size tampers - the size tampers La Marzocco decided to use from their study and experimentation.

Wilson

[chasr]

WIlson, that clinches it. You've been annointed with a special rank!

[jsutton]

I wanted to update everyone on my "naked portafilter" challenges -- I decided to blow through a ton of coffee and experiment until I got some better results....so here is where I'm at today....

Mazzer Mini, LM Ridged dbl basket...3.5 sec pre-infusion ON/1 sec OFF, over dosing (previously I was not using PI) - I decided to really try PI after watching a video on the new SLAYER machine, which has much smoother PI (under very low pressure), but the basic principle of PI seemed pretty compelling even if under much more pressure then the SLAYER.

I'm sure my grind/tamp skills have been improving (RB 58mm tamper) --but with these new pre-infusion settings, STELLAR SHOTS, great tiger striping, center cone, all good...

I found that it took 3.5 sec ON to actually wet the puck all the way though...and a short 1 sec OFF kept everything moving along nicely.

I'm going to start using my 57mm tamper to see what effect I get...but I can safely say, the new PI settings turned poor/blond shots into STELLAR shots.

Thoughts?

[yannis]

Let us know how it goes with the Versalab.

Just got it today, so too early to tell. I love the size and direct grind path. I also like the design but that is subjective.

So far I have been able to get good shots from the triple basket with 20g of Black Cat. I will update you with my progress in a few days. In the meanwhile, I welcome suggestions on dialing it in (if you have some, please reply to my message in the Grinders/Versalab thread--let's keep this one on topic!)

Yannis

[Wilson]

Jason,

Like you I use pre-infusion, but only for the single basket. La Marzocco recommends pre-infusion for the single, but not for the double ridge basket or triple shot no ridge naked basket. I tried pre-infusion for the double and the naked triple baskets and with my tasting test could not see any difference. However there was a big difference with shot times becoming much more stable without pre-infusion. My shot times with the double and triple pre-infusion were sometimes 10 seconds difference shot to shot with the same grind. Without pre-infusion those times averaged out, now, to 3 seconds difference and many times making successive cups in the double basket it gave me 28 seconds in both cups. The reason I called La Marzocco was because of the inconsistency of shot time between shots and they recommended to eliminate the pre-infusion for doubles and try it - it worked. If you see inconsistent times using pre-infusion try this method.

With the triple shot basket it requires a larger grind than I use for single and doubles and I just quit using the naked PF. We don't have room in the kitchen for another grinder.

[voidroid]

I've stopped using preinfusion for aged coffee (10 days minimum). I used 3.5 seconds on and then 2.4 seconds or so off and found it soaked the puck so much that water wouldn't flow easily once the water flow resumed. Less soaking achieves a better flow but didn't think there was any point using it and there is no discernable difference to my palate anyway.

So just thinking about it now I wonder if preinfusion would be really good for very fresh coffee (maybe 2-7 days?) to allow the puck to swell, restrict water flow and namely prevent channelling with really fresh gasey coffee (which is what I experience with really fresh coffee).

Is preinfusion another method to control water flow through coffee that you can't always achieve by adjusting the grind or tamp pressure? No one has ever said exactly what preinfusion is for and how to configure it.